Off On Overwritten

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    • >if you switch off a sequence the lamps gonna jump to the last active sequence.
      That sounds to me like you might be thinking about 'Auto Off'

      Off on Overwritten should mean that before a sequence is turned off every parameter that it was controlling has now been taken over by one or more other sequences, such that if this sequence is turned off nothing would change on the output.

      Personally when using gMA1/gMA2 I have OoO enabled as a default, and only turn it Off in specific circumstances, normally on Fader Executors, so that, say, a Dimmer FX does not turn off a Dim FF fader.
      I think in the context of dot2 then OoO enabled on Buttons and disabled on Faders is the most suitable way to go for most users in most situations.

      Assuming for a moment that Button Executors might be used for, say, Fixture Colours, then whichever was the last Colour selected should be Active, and all previous Colour Executors should be off. (assuming that all the same Colour Parameters; Mix/Wheel/CTC are included in both Executors)
      Whereas assuming that Fader Executors might typically be used as (or include) Dimmer, then if a Fader is left up it should also stay On until it is pulled down, for example, Exec 1 is Dimmers Full, and Exec 2 is a Dimmer Chase or Effect, if 1 is up, Lights on, I then fade up 2, I expect the Lights to flash, if I leave 1 up, and then lower 2, I expect the Lights to return to Full.

      Meanwhile, 'Auto Off' constantly enabled I think is an entirely different debate.
      I'll be having a chat with the chaps from MA at PL+S to better understand the reasoning behind this, and if/when/how it might be made something that is not enforced at all times by default.

      I'm sure many forum members who are attending PL+S will take this opportunity to get 'Hands On' and also discuss with MA their personal concerns and ideas about what dot2 should, and should not, become.
      I think the most interesting thing though should be the reaction of newcomers to MA.

      Previous users of gMA1/gMA2 may be inclined to petition for any and every feature they already use to be included in dot2, such that "Feature Creep" leads to dot2 becoming gMA2 in a smaller box.

      I don't believe the 'Mission Statement' that dot2 is aimed at users who might not be typical gMA1/gMA2 users should in any way exclude previous gMA users from considering dot2 as a desk for them too.

      I know I'd be happy to use dot2 for some of the shows I do, and accept what might seem to me to be some limitations, because in that environment those 'limitations' would not in fact be features or behavior I require for that show anyway.
    • Workflow studies during alpha and beta-testing showed that with persistant button-execs, the user always ended up with a lot of buttons that were on, but overwritten. As Auto-fix is enabled (check other thread for reasons for this), these overwritten buttons would not change pages. Having buttons that didn't contribute to output, prevent page-change until user manually switched them all off was not very practical.
      Fader executors on the other hand (not being motorized) have a physical handle that anyway has to be moved, so it was more obvious that they stayed persistant.

      So unfortunately there is no such thing as "a simple seq option". Options go hand-in-hand. with OoO option you would need autofix option etc etc. and the dot2 would end up exactly as the 30+ option-monster called gma2.
    • @Nige Lites

      I know what OoO is about. But I don't want to switch off an exec button that contains a color because I've pressed a flash button with different color.
      I like to override the current output just for some seconds and the option that my lamps return to the sequence before.

      @Andreas
      I really do understand your explanation about the case studie.
      Maybe I should use the master sequence much more than I normally do.

      But like I said OoO, Tracking and Auto Stop should be basic sequence options at every console.
    • Taking the Desk as it currently is, and considering the case you outline above;
      > I don't want to switch off an exec button that contains a color because I've pressed a flash button with different color.

      There is one possible method that might work for you in some situations;
      From the Manual -
      If you press and hold the [ma] key and then press the [Toggle] key then you get the Temp command.
      This can be used to run an executor temporary. When you press the [ma + Toggle] and then press a key associated with an executor, then the executor will be active as long as you hold the key pressed.
      When you press the executor key the actual Temp command is executed and when you release the key, then you execute a Temp Off . This will also turn off the executor if it was running before you did the "temp".


      This might be an acceptable way to achieve the result you are after on an occasional basis.

      If you expect to use an Executor in this way more often (say, a Bump to White used frequently as an Accent), then an Executor Button can be assigned to always have the 'Temp' function in the Executor Options.

      Regarding Auto Stop, I've mentioned this to some MA Chaps, and they were receptive to the fact that in some situations it may not be desirable as a default. I also suggested a solution that might be acceptable within the overall intentions of the Desk, and that was given some consideration.
      If/when/how this may ever be implemented we can only wait and see.

      I see from your Profile you are from Germany, are you attending PL+S, there is a perfect opportunity to get 'Hands On' and discuss your concerns and ideas with the MA team. In some cases at least, there may be a workaround to achieve your desired result, in others something you require may not currently be possible right now, and in that case maybe someone can explain why not now, and if/maybe later your wish might come true.

      Cheers,
      Nige.
    • Thanks for the long response. I will try the temp function asap.

      The problem is I often work with guest operators. Many of them are Hog or Martin user, so I have to program the sequences for them.
      Nearly all ask me to store only dimmers per group to faders and colors single to exec buttons. Also effects and flash buttons to buttons.
      That is a simple RocknRoll setup. So if color only comes from exec buttons the desk will release the current color if I press a flash button with white random strobe. So disable OoO was the solution on gma1 and gma2.
      About Auto Stop. I normal have it enabled but for the master sequence or a sequence with position values in it, it can be very useful to have the option to disable it.
      I wouldn't ask that much if I would be the only one who's working with the console. It's not my favorite way of programming but unfortunately sometimes I have no choice.

      I will visit the Prolight&Sound this week
    • My opinion for a console in this range is that there should be as few options as possible for the following reason:

      with more than a few options, the need for userdefinable defaults will arise:
      ("why to I have to disable OoO and enable tracking everytime I have created an executor, why cannot I store this as my default options, this console is to slow to work with..")
      With the introductiuon of userdefinable defaults, the behaviour of the console is no longer predictable, and simple users which have no relation to such options will not understand why the console at venue abc doesn't work as they are used to at venue xyz.

      ---

      Personally I do not see any good enough reasons for the ability to disable tracking...
    • >... I know some theaters, ... who only work without tracking.

      I'm curious how this might work;
      Do you mean that they force/re-assert/block/record all Active Values in all Cues.
      - In this case maybe [ma+Store] (Store Look) might be a solution.

      Or do you mean that after storing one scene they blackout the stage/clear the programmer and build the next scene 'from scratch', meaning nothing from the previous scene is assumed to be in the new scene unless specifically programmed again.
      - In this case, perhaps starting with [Fixture Thru, Dot Dot/At 0] then building the scene might work, effectively Blocking all fixtures not used in the scene at 00%
      If there are some patched fixtures that should never be included in any Scene, but may need their own Master, such as Auditorium Lights or Backstage Worklights, then substitute [Fixture Thru] with a Group "All Stage Fixtures".

      My own experience of the Theatre world is that Tracking has been the life-blood of Light Programming since the first digital desks and it was the Rock-n-Rollers who had to learn about, and accept,Tracking as a smart way of working with Cue-lists.
      That said, the whole lighting world is full of individuals with their own preferences and ways of working, and why not....

      The dot2 offers a minimal, but carefully considered set of options and functions that deals with a huge variety of anticipated situations.
      Mr Murphy said "It's hard to make things Foolproof when Fools are so Ingenious"
      I don't intend that in any way as an insult, but to indicate that no matter what circumstance you may have anticipated, there will be some exception to your assumptions.
      one solution is to offer every conceivable alternative, and continue to add more as another exception arises, that would be the path of gMA2.
      Or we can be ingenious in another way and try to find a solution using the tools we do have already.
      Of course some balance has to be found.
      Taken to the other extreme "If the only tool you have is a Hammer, everything looks like a Nail"
      In this view, maybe the dot2 could be our Leatherman....
    • Hi Nige Lites,

      yes this is exactly what they do. They do store every new cue from the scratch. Before programming they create a list of which fixtures should be included in which scene and additional information about value, infade and outfade. Even RGB Lamps will be treated as 3 different Lamps in the same body as they have3 different colors. It took a while since I've found out what they want me to tell, but after disabling tracking everything was fine and the system was very fast. After the first job I was asking for this in all theaters I was working in and I found many more in Germany, Taiwan, China and Ireland and I'm pretty sure in some other countries.
      In my eyes the option to disable tracking should be a basic function at every lighting console.
      I agree that we don't need all options like on gma2 but the basic ones should be available.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Go-Button ().

    • Hi Go-Button,
      Wow, that is an eye-open for me. I did not work that way since 'School Theatre' days with a 2-Preset Strand Mini-18 and a Spreadsheet/table of Channel columns, Cue rows filled with numbers, or after that a Celco Series 2 with 'Cue per Memory fader'.

      But if this is the way these people have always worked, and they feel comfortable with it, then what is the choice.

      There could be a petition to have a Tracking On/Off Option, already I hear the cry of "Feature Creep"from the Keep It Simple Camp.

      Or we encourage the 'Tracking Off' crowd to 'Block' their Cues, including 00% values "Because that's the way the Desk works"
      along the way we can point out to them how their Cue Sheet has the same values in several consecutive Cues, see how the Desk helps you so you don't have to enter those values again and again....

      Really the choice seems to be adapt the desk to their Comfortable (but maybe considered Old Fashioned) way of working, or try to Polite and Gentle drag them kicking and screaming into the Mid-1990's.

      That said, I too do have some occasion to turn Tracking Off.
      When working with Rock-n-Roll, in the case of a simple Dimmer Chase;
      1st Lamp FF, Store, Clear.
      2nd Lamp FF, Store, Clear.
      3rd Lamp FF, Store, Clear
      ... ..... .. ..... ....
      Last Lamp FF, Store, Exec Option = 'Chaser'
      Without Tracking Off that becomes a lovely 'One Shot' build to All Lamps On, and a nice example of what Tracking does.
      So with Tracking only ever On-
      'All Group' 00
      1st Lamp FF, Store, Clear.
      'All Group' 00
      2nd Lamp FF, Store, Clear.
      'All Group' 00
      3rd Lamp FF, Store, Clear
      .......

      Slightly more work, for sure, and maybe I raise one small finger in the vote for Tracking Option, but if I can't have it I won't cry, I'll just work round it.
    • Yes, the good old RocknRoll chase is a good example for this.
      Or think about an effect sequence also for a RocknRoll show. A single sequence contains a cuelist with all effects of a specific group in it. Some effects are pan/tilt, some color and some combinations of different Attributes.
      By using tracking you need to stomp every unused attribute at every cue to have every cue looking exactly how you want it. Disable tracking would make it much easier and much faster. Just a simple click on the option and done.
      I've also found some interesting questions on ma-share.net in the past years. Some problems wouldn't be that hard with disabled tracking.
      Yes, maybe we don't need this every time but there are some useful applications for this.
    • Not only do I still not see a real need for non-tracking on dot2, this discussion has made me even more sure that there clearly should be no such option.

      A simple user may start by having dimmers only at first, and is adviced by someone on this forum to disable tracking, when he asks why some fixtures from cue 1 are still on in cue 2.
      Then after a year he buys some movers.....
      Unless he accepts that the fixtures are moving back to home-position every time they fade out, he will have to relate to tracking. Better to learn this from the start.

      Non-tracking only makes sense with dimmers. The mentionned theatre scenario should in my opinion be covered by the StoreLook command which stores all dimmervalues, (along with all attributes for fixtures that are on), effectivly preventing the dimmers to track as they are blocked in every cue, while allowing attributes to track to prevent ugly transitions.

      as for Rock&roll chase, as long as you accept that this is a tracking console, and build your chase as any sequence, you should be fine. It takes no more time to put the channel to zero, than to clear.

      1 Full
      Store
      .. (dot-dot shortcut for At 0)
      2 Full
      Store->create second cue
      ..
      3 Full
      Store
      ..
      4 Full
      Store
      Exec Option = 'Chaser'

      the tracking engine will calculate the correct state for your cue (with only one channel on) nomather if the chase is run forward, backwards or random)

      Same apply to a cuelists with effects. there is no need to stomp everything in every cue. the tracking state will recall the cue correctly even if the stomp is in an earlier cue.

      group 1 color effect
      Store cue 1
      Stomp Color
      Pan/tilt effect
      Store cue 2
      Stomp pan/tilt
      dimmer effect
      Store cue 3

      - no need to stomp color in cue 3, color being stomped is tracked from cue 2
    • Thanks Andreas.You are right. You didn't need to stomp all attributes in every cue. I wasn't clear enough.I should better say you don't need to store the unused attribute to every new cue that contains a different effect.
      But lets stay with your example.

      group 1 color effect
      Store cue 1
      Stomp Color
      Pan/tilt effect
      Store cue 2
      Stomp pan/tilt
      dimmer effect
      Store cue 3

      After the operator is ready with programming, the band tells him that the set list has changed. (Changes are our daily business) The operator is now going to move cue 3 between cue 1 and 2 in the order he needs this for his show. The new cue is 1.5
      Playback this sequence will not look like expected because in cue 1.5 the color effect from cue 1 is still running as cue 1.5 only contains a stomp command for pan/tilt.
      And in cue 2 the dimmer effect from cue 1.5 is still running as cue 2 only contains a stomp command for color. In this case you need to update 2 cues because you've simply moved one cue to its new destination.
      Disabling tracking would automatically prevent this issue. Additionally you will save
      programming time as you don't need to store that much stomp commands.

      The post was edited 4 times, last by Go-Button ().